Newbie question about mixers

[Stephen West]

Hi,

I plan on using a Behringer mixer to mix 3 analogue sources from playout software such as Station Playlist or similar (2 x music and 1 x cart) plus a mic. The Behringer output is USB back into the PC.

My question is whether it is feasible to do this all on the same system? To do so, I am going to need an output device to give me 3 channels to go into 3 faders on the mixer and then back into the PC with USB.

Also, I guess that as well as the playout software, the PC will also have to run the encoder?

So do I have one PC with the encoder and another with the playout system or do it all on the same PC? If I do split it over 2 PCs, how do I get the song title/artist meta data from the playout software into the encoder?

Questions Questions!

I will be using Icecast on the internet-radio.com platform and no idea what encoder to choose or what codec (MP3 or AAC).

Sorry for showing my ignorance

Stephen,

PS) The guides in this forum are excellent.

 

[Support]

Hi Stephen,

Welcome to the forums.

You are probably better off having another PC take care of the encoding side. An old cheap PC would do the trick if you do not have a spare one kicking about. But with such a set up you are not going to be able to display the meta data info. However, a lot of encoders allow you to manually update this info if you are prepared to do so for each track. But if you are using a mic, then you will be most likely introducing the tracks we imagine, so in that case the meta data is not all that important we don't think.

Yes, you would need to run an encoder on your PC to send the audio to your radio server if you was to use an external mixer. We cover setting up most of the popular encoders in our guides section: http://www.internet-radio.com/community/forums/guides.12/

But as far as we are aware (we have never used it ourselves), Station Playlist is an affordable all-in-one solution for broadcasting. Its all you need really and allows for a mic input as well. It would be a lot easier to just run this all on the one PC. Is it essential that you use an external mixer? We do understand though if this is for more hands on control of the channels volumes and cross fading.

Icecast only allows for broadcasting in the Mp3 and Ogg Vorbis formats, you would need a Shoutcast server if you wished to stream in the AAC format. While AAC is better quality than MP3 at lower bitrates, generally we would recommend using the Mp3 format which is more user friendly and will be supported by most media players. AAC streams do not always work well with all flash / html5 players.

Thank you very much as well for the kind words about our guides section, we are pleased that you (and hopefully others) find them useful.

We hope this helps? Please let us know if you have any further questions at all, thanks.

 

[Stephen West]

Whether I really NEED an external mixer is a good question although I would certainly like to have one in our mini-studio. To be honest, perception is everything and it'll look good when our clients visit

I realise Station Playlist has its own encoder but I can't understand how I could output the music and cart channels from Station Playlist into a mixing desk and then send them back in again to be encoded by Station Playlist to be sent to your servers. Is that possible?

The other question that I have is that Station Playlist appears to have a lot of options for sending out the track meta-data to either the web or the encoder. Is there no way that the playout PC can communicate the track meta-data to the encoder on the encoding PC? I have been reading about a technique where the current track is written to a file by the playout software and the encoder software "polls" this file ever 10 seconds. As I said, I am a newbie so forgive me if I have misunderstood how this all works.

I have no shortage of production ideas; it is just getting a handle on the tech. The last time I worked as a broadcast journalist was in the 80s when we had idents and jingles on NAB cartridges and we recorded news pieces on magnetic tape and edited them with a razor blade !!!

 

[Support]

Fair enough, just having a laptop / pc for your studio does not look quite as impressive does it. I prefer using a hardware mixer over a software mixer any day.

Well really you would need a soundcard that has multiple outputs. You need to be able to split this across the mixers channels. If your soundcard has only the one output then its pointless feeding this to a mixer as it would all just be on a single channel. In that case you may as well cut out the mixer and just use Station Playlist to encode this. We are not sure that you can actually even assign different channel outputs in Station Playlist? It would need some kind of external mixing mode to set up your output routing.

You would not really want to send this output back in again into the same software (unless you can assign the output routing). We would personally just use another encoder for this such as BUTT. http://www.internet-radio.com/commu...r-on-both-shoutcast-and-icecast-servers.5893/ It would just be a case of selecting your Behringers output as the audio device for the encoder. This encoder then connects to our servers to broadcast the stream.

It would be a bit tricky to set up separate PC's to communicate the track meta-data. By using Station Playlist as an input on the mixer it would in theory be no different to connecting a turntable or cd deck instead, its just an audio input then. But yes, you can update the track info in some encoders from a text file. BUTT, which we mentioned above, lets the current song either be updated manually or automatically by reading a file. See section 6 of the manual for info on this: http://butt.sourceforge.net/manual.html To be honest, this is not something that we have ever tried out, so how well this would work we are not sure?

Again, its almost making this all a bit complicated for yourself just for the sake of using an external mixer. You might want to consider instead some other DJ software that uses a midi controller. This will encode / allow for multiple channels / send out the meta-data / have a mic input and the midi controller provides the feel of a mixer for more hands on control. (and looks more impressive ha ha).

 

[Stephen West]

I have Station Playlist loaded on my laptop. It allows you to define different output channels for each of the 2 MUSIC channels, CART, MIC and I believe also LINE IN. Yes I get the fact that if the mixer output goes back into the same PC then I would need to use a different encoder such as BUTT,

I am willing to experiment with the interface between Station Playlist and the encoder in terms of meta-data. If the interface is simply a file then that could be accomplished even if there are 2 separate PCs by having a shared folder on a LAN. If BUTT reads this file, can the format of the file and parameters be configured?

The other obvious question is does the encoder PC need to located in the same room as the mixer / playout system (Station Playlist)? If not, I can't see how I would get he audio to the encoder without over complicating matters.

I am interested in what you said about using MIDI and doing everything on one PC while still having the illusion of a mixing desk and faders. Would you mind explaining further how that would work and what a typical configuration would look like?

I thank you!

 

[Support]

By all means experiment with it all and see what works best for you. That's handy that you can assign different output channels. Hopefully your soundcard supports this.

Yes a shared folder over a network would work, which parameters would you want to configure from the file?

In regards to midi controllers with integrated DJ software, a good example of the top of the range controllers would be the Traktor Kontrol S4. http://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/traktor/dj-controllers/traktor-kontrol-s4/ Or the Pioneer DDJ range http://www.pioneerdj.com/en/product/controller. But there are other various different controllers available all at varying prices, so its worth checking out various controllers for their individual features and what may be best suited to your own needs.

No problem at all, happy to help.

 

[Stephen West]

The systems that you suggested above are just external controllers - they don't actually process sound themselves - right?

They look great for DJing but we're more into production of current affairs content and chat punctuated by music during the day and primarily repeats of serious factual content in the evening and then auto DJ music through the night.

The only parameters that I want to pass between Station Playlist (or whatever playout system we choose) and the encoder is title/artist for any music that we play.

Am I right in assuming that most people have a setup such that the encoder has got to be close enough to the mixer so that it can physically connect with it using either audio cable or USB?

 

[Support]

Sorry we forgot to mention that the controllers normally (the Traktor and Pioneers range do) have great quality built in soundcards. They come bundled with integrated software that is pro standard in the digital DJ'ing world. This software is most cases features online radio streaming. But yes, you are right in thinking that they are aimed more so at DJ's. We understand if they are not for you and judging by your intended content probably not necessary in that case.

Yes, if your Behringer mixer has a USB output (is it from the Xenyx range?) then you will need the mixer close enough to reach the PC that is handling the encoding to the server in order to connect it to that. And if you are using audio outputs instead, then these cables need to reach the inputs of your encoding PC's soundcard input(s).

 

[Stephen West]

This is our intended mixer to start off with http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/QX1622USB.aspx It seems to have more mic inputs than we need and enough line inputs to mix music and cart from Station Playlist and have another input for a CD player or another aux device like a CD player.

Do you have any direct experience of getting the BUTT encoder to accept current track meta-data from another playout system such as Station Playlist?



.

 

[Support]

Nice, the mixer looks good. Plenty of inputs and a built in audio interface.

No, we have no direct experience with BUTT reading meta-data from a file nor from another encoder we are afraid. If as you mentioned Station Playlist outputs this to a file and its outputted into a shared folder, then if you select this same file in BUTT to read from then it should hopefully work.

Have you tried actually contacting the Station Playlist developers directly themselves to ask about configuring its output routing for use with an external mixer? http://www.stationplaylist.com/contact.html They may have some better suggestions. Having now seen its a mixer and also an audio interface, perhaps this is all possible from the same PC / software?

We have never used Station Playlist nor that mixer, so without any personal experience or by playing around with its routing ourselves its a bit hard for us to properly advise you on this. In regards to the server hosting side of things we can give you clear advice, but just not so much on software / equipment that we are unfamiliar with.

 

[Stephen West]

I have not contacted the vendors of Station Playlist because it is too early and any questions that I ask them have to specific to my configuration to be meaningful. I think we need to try to get this all assembled as best we can and then reach out for help with specific issues as we need to. If they are as helpful as yourselves then I won't have a problem.

So, the only remaining question is do I split the setup over 2 systems or do I run Station Playlist and the encoder on the same system? If I chose the latter option, I am going to have lots of audio outputs on the system going into a mixer and then back in via USB and then out through the encoder all on the same machine. Do you have any advice on best practice?

 

[Support]

Yeah that's fair enough. Best way would be to just set it all up and have a play around with it to see what works.

Running it all from the same machine could prove troublesome. The ideal set up (in my opinion) would be having one PC running Station Playlist, this then outputs the software's channels to the individual channels of the mixing desk. Then an audio output from the mixing desk goes into a soundcards input on another PC. This PC then will solely be running an encoder such as BUTT which connects to the radio server to broadcast the audio.

We cannot confirm that you can split the outputs of SP across the Behringers mixers channels and then route this back into the software, but from a quick look at their website you can use the software with external mixers. Also if you are using the mixer as your main audio interface, using this for both SP and then also selecting this as the 'Audio Device' in the encoder on the same machine may not necessarily work. Usually they will take the "line in" from your audio interface (or the option to use your default PCM device). This is why it would be best to just have a separate PC (with its own soundcard) to handle the encoding side of things. Its more to set up, but less trouble in the long run.

 

[Stephen West]

Your advice is greatly appreciated. We are going to experiment but I am confident that we can get this working.

I'll let you know what type of configuration we end up with.

 

[Support]

No problem at all. Happy to try and help as best as we can.

Yes please do, we would be interested to know.

 

[General Lighting]

those Behringer mixers do work for the price and I have used them for live streaming. The best way is to use two (or even more) computers to generate the audio and connect these playout PC's outputs to the Behringer; each one via something like this (you may also need various adaptor leads).

http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/psg08233/ground-loop-isolator/dp/AV12774?MER=e-bb45-00001001

The reason for the transformers is they keep away a noise current that computer power supplies generate; which otherwise contaminates the functional earth of audio equipment via the protective earth on the metal frame (that stops you being sparked if something is defective), You can do without them but you will get as much as 20dB extra of noise (especially if the 230V mains in your building has TN-C-S protective earth).

Internet radio is not like Band II VHF (FM) where this noise can be buried in the existing noise floor from atmospherics etc - your listeners will hear it and it goes across the entire audio band. Laptops in particular are notorious for generating even more of this noise (as their power supplies aren't usually connected to protective earth at the DC 0V side) as they aren't metal - and the built in audio outputs can be rough anyway as they are only meant for VOIP phone calls and listening to voicemails. An portable external USB sound card is much better.

Dedicate the other PC to the streaming which gets the audio from the built in USB card of the mixer. Make sure the ASIO control is set to 44.1 KHz 16 bit (it can often do higher sample rates and bitrates) otherwise the streaming doesn't work well.

if you want live soundprocessing you might need another PC for that; with its own soundcard and some Japanese shareware.

There is an application called update-title you can use to change the metadata from elsewhere (doesn't even have to be a PC in the studio) but its worth knowing some French to work it (it was designed for a French community radio station)

Incidentally I've successfully streamed AAC via one of the Icecast servers here; albeit via a Liquidsoap transcoder.and/or Sourceforge Airtime; but both these things can be complicated to set up and require a dedicated Linux VPS. I am lucky though as my day job involves keeping important communications equipment running well in care homes for older people or those who are very ill but can work remotely (to test links between each sites) which also means I usually always have access to an Internet link.

Stephen has turned up at just the right time - I am also working on a side project to play music across one of the sites; but it must of course be suitable for the older generations (from late middle age to senior citizens) to listen to.

My personal preferences of trance, house and hard techno might be suitable. the piratenmuziek from Nederland could be but they are usually only on in evenings and not everyone understands Dutch or German - I'd also have to be constantly changing the stream feed over because Agentschap Telecom / BNetzA have shut down the pirate transmitter feeding it.

I have already got Radio Caroline on the list of suitable streams to relay but would be interested in any other station run by people slightly older by myself with a music policy that caters for all ages.

 

[Mark H]

Hello, something of a late reply but perhaps still of some use to Stephen.

I've used a single aging Dell Windows 7 machine in the application he describes.

I used two outboard USB soundcards, a Reloop Play (2 stereo channels out) and a Creative Sound Blaster MP3+ (1 stereo out, 1 stereo in).

This is used with playout software (PlayIt Live) for two "normal" players (the Reloop) and a third for "carts" and pre fade listen (Sound Blaster out) on to 3 stereo channels on a mixer.

The mixed output (with any processing) is fed back in to the Sound Blaster and streamed via B.U.T.T.

The whole setup has been running for months and seems very stable.

The Windows 7 machine is an otherwise "clean" install which I'm sure helps.

One other point. PlayIt Live can save a "now playing" file name as text and B.U.T.T. picks it up so the stream metadata is correct.